Curse

Numa Pompilius · Oct 21, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I agree with IxChel, there is a problem with Holy Veil now.

I think that your solution 1) or to make the casting time of Remove Hex 1-1.5 seconds would be preferrable. I don't really see the logic in that hex removal should be an easily interruptable (after the update any skill which takes more than 1 second to cast is easily interruptable) skill.

I tried taking Remove Hex into arena yesterday, and yes, it got interrupted about half the time.

NatalieD · Oct 21, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I don't really see the logic in that hex removal should be an easily interruptable (after the update any skill which takes more than 1 second to cast is easily interruptable) skill.

Hex removal isn't an easily interruptable skill. Hex removal on a seven-second recharge is an easily interruptable skill. That's why skills like Smite Hex, Inspired Hex, and now Holy Veil exist.

I agree with IxChel, though.

Zonzai · Oct 21, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Carridan

Was remove hex ever the hex remover of choice? It always seemed to be rather dismal spell to me...

That's the way I feel too.

Undivine · Oct 21, 2005, 09:41 AM // 09:41

The impression I'm getting is that you all seem to think Holy Veil is pretty good in PvP. I don't PvP at all and I think the spell sucks compared to Remove Hex.

In PvE it's better to have a hex removal that you can cast multiple times in rapid succession. The more rapid the better. You also don't want it to cause mana degen for any length of time, as some monks (such as mine) typically maintain lots of enchantments at once, and every little extra degen hurts, even if it is brief. Getting interrupted isn't as big a deal because you can counter that by simply keeping out of sight while you work.

The way we can interpret the spell's intended use is that it's supposed to be an enchantment that helps punish hexing spellcasters and you can removed it once the hex is there. So it has two very different uses in one spell.

It's a little confusing that they chose to keep the cast time at 1 second. Enchantments usually are applied before battle and don't really need a short cast time. Some are good for mid-battle casting, but slowing hexes down? I don't see how that's a mid-battle sort of spell. I think as a mid-battle enchantment spell it should be more like 10 mana cost and it removes a hex when applied, not when removed. As it is now it's pretty ambiguous as to how the spell is supposed to really be used. Thus we have people using it in counter-intuitive ways.

It's a strange spell. It doesn't have one purpose. It doesn't even really have a duel purpose, as you tend to either use one function or the other, and not both.

Navaros · Oct 21, 2005, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I use both functions of Holy Veil in PVP.

Hexes are already still way overpowered due to the limited ways to remove them. Leave Holy Veil as is. Having it on the skillbar is one of the few viable ways in the game to counter hexes decently. Even then, if it's the only hex removal skill on one player's skillbar, then he's not going to be effective at removing hexes. And using it takes a lot of micro time away from other things; having to doubleclick on that little tiny icon constantly in the midst of a hectic battle is a skill that should be respected. One player having to waste at least two skillbar slots just to be able to remove hexes effectively is already enough of a detriment without nerfing those spells even more.

Another thing: removing Holy Veil off yourself vs. a good hexing team is a really big tradeoff. Once you take it off, then chances are you will be Migrained again shortly after (which is a huge pain in the butt!), followed by a whole whackload of other hexes on you at the same time, and hence be unable to get Veil back up again without a ton of effort. So with Veil on, your only choice is: remove Veil and very probably screw yourself by doing so, or keep Veil up in spite of all the hexes on you, knowing that to take it down is just going to make things even worse. Having to make choices like this adds to the depth of Guild Wars. Nerfing Holy Veil would remove the choice from this equation, hence another reason why a nerf is a bad idea.

Holy Veil is fine. If they want to buff Remove Hex as well, that would also be good. Just don't be nerfing Holy Veil.

Kabale · Oct 21, 2005, 11:56 AM // 11:56

It's called the 'customize' option......... move it to someplace near the party screen and I think you can even increase the size of the button. Shouldn't be that hard.

Undivine · Oct 21, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I use both functions of Holy Veil in PVP.

Another thing: removing Holy Veil off yourself vs. a good hexing team is a really big tradeoff. Once you take it off, then chances are you will be Migrained again shortly after (which is a huge pain in the butt!), followed by a whole whackload of other hexes on you at the same time, and hence be unable to get Veil back up again without a ton of effort. So with Veil on, your only choice is: remove Veil and very probably screw yourself by doing so, or keep Veil up in spite of all the hexes on you, knowing that to take it down is just going to make things even worse. Having to make choices like this adds to the depth of Guild Wars. Nerfing Holy Veil would remove the choice from this equation, hence another reason why a nerf is a bad idea.

Holy Veil is fine. If they want to buff Remove Hex as well, that would also be good. Just don't be nerfing Holy Veil.

Exactly why I think it would work better if it removed the hex first, then provided the hex slowing benefit. It actually works as a reasonable counter to hexes in some form. You remove a hex and hinder more hexes from being put on the person in one swoop.

The depth of Guild Wars you speak of is not about bringing skills that only provide you with lose-lose dilemmas. Many of the skills in this game have a benefit and a penalty, but the penalty is always acceptable in some way in the right situations. In other words the skills are context sensitive. The depth of GW is that you have to know when to use a skill and when not to. This spell, as it is, isn't great contextually. It temps you with one benefit (removing a hex) and temps you with another (extending hex cast times). Either way it's doing something, but you don't get the benefit of both at the same time, which makes this a very peculiar spell. The only spell like it, to my knowledge.

I'm not saying the spell is useless, but it is pretty unintuitive. And not in a good way, IMO. It really acts like two separate spells. Not a double-benefit, but a two uncomplimentary spells.

Undivine · Oct 21, 2005, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

It's called the 'customize' option......... move it to someplace near the party screen and I think you can even increase the size of the button. Shouldn't be that hard.

By "it" I assume you're talking about the maintained enchantment bar? Clicking on the icon is not the problem. It's the responsiveness of the interface. If you simply double-click, it will only take it off half the time. Sometimes I just rapidly click it until I see it come off. When doing that I occasionally take off more enchantments than I wanted to accidentally.

This issue is actually the reason I came on this forum. More or less.

Navaros · Oct 21, 2005, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I too noticed that the enchantments don't always come off when I doubleclick the small icon.

And even customizing the interface to move the icon closer to the party window is not a good solution. Because although it does save some time, it's still a waste of time having to drag the mouse back and forth that far each time you want to remove a Veil. In the heat of a tough battle, spending a half-second getting off a heal spell to an ally being spiked can save his life. Or that half-second can be spent dragging the cursor up and down to the Veil icon, hence forcing the ally to die needlessly.

One thing OP of this thread is right about, is that there should definitely be a mappable key to remove maintained enchantments with one keystroke. After all, there is nothing fun about having to struggle with an interface or having said interface be needlessly cumbersome.

IxChel · Oct 21, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Ok. There seems to be a growing concensus that people like Holy Veil as is and would prefer this skill imbalance to be addressed by setting the cast time of Remove Hex at 1s. This works for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I think that [a solution] to make the casting time of Remove Hex 1-1.5 seconds would be preferrable. I don't really see the logic in that hex removal should be an easily interruptable (after the update any skill which takes more than 1 second to cast is easily interruptable) skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Holy Veil is fine. If they want to buff Remove Hex as well, that would also be good. Just don't be nerfing Holy Veil.

Navaros · Oct 21, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Yeah, I can definitely /signed on buffing Remove Hex casting time down to 1s.

Rey Lentless · Oct 21, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I think the 'used as intended' is a little misleading here. It's original form of course involved no hex removal and it was a skill that was never going to show up on any competent player's skill bar. They did add a hex removal component to it however, and saying now that it isn't being used as intended is incorrect IMO. It's not the same skill it once was, so of course it isn't used in the same way (which was not at all before).

I still don't understand how shatter hex needed a nerf, can someone explain that to me?

I know it was huge damage and a huge radius.. but it requires you to be hexed, and is very expensive. It's a skill that requires the other team to do something to gain any benefit from, so I don't see why it wouldn't have a large damage and radius. It's not like you can base a build around planning on getting a bunch of hexes on your team, running in.. and 'spiking' with multiple hex removals.

Does anyone carry this on their bar now? I know I don't.

Undivine · Oct 22, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I haven't played my mesmer in a while, but can definately agree with you about Shatter Hex. That spell was just fine as it was. The mesmer doesn't exactly have the best of damage spells anyway. I realize their style of play is the dagger, not the sword, but every now and then a mesmer needs to do damage. It's modest too! Why nerf?

Navaros · Oct 22, 2005, 11:43 AM // 11:43

On the subject of nerfing anti-Hex spells, what puzzles me is why they nerfed Hexbreaker - which absolutely did not need a nerf at all.

I personally never used Shatter Hex all that much hence I am not familiar enough to comment on that skill specifically, but seeing you guys complain about it being unjustly nerfed does not surprise me since they also nerfed Hexbreaker for no reason.

It's kinda seeming like the devs have a pro-hexing bias or something; and want hexes to being a lot easier for enemies to inflict upon your team than they are to counter on your own team.

I vote to unnerf Hexbreaker and put it to exactly as it was before it got nerfed.